Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
Sign in to follow this  
RobBucksPA

What about magnetism?

Staff Recommended Posts

As we all know, there is a huge amount of information published about greenhouse gases and global warming.  

As we also know, the earth's magnetic field has been tapering off for about 1,000 years.  The magnetic north pole is moving, and fast.  The "ring of fire" is as active as any of us have seen in our lifetime.  Eruptions, earthquakes and tsunamis are frighteningly common, and not just in the Pacific.  Iceland, Italy, etc.  It's not just the ROF.

Are the two correlated?  Does the increased geological activity correlate with changes to the earth's magnetic field?

Given the internet, it's harder than ever to separate the wheat from the chaff.  What information is well reasoned and scientific, what information is intentionally spun, and what information is outright clickbait?  Hard to say.  Add "unintentional spinning" to that mix and it gets even harder to focus on what might be called "actual data."

But it's out there.  Whether people are studying it, that's yet a different question.

So I ask: in your opinion, does the earth's magnetic field affect climate, weather, both, or neither?

There's no question that magnetic north has recently moved a lot.  There's no question that our magnetic field has weakened for as long as we've been measuring it.  There's very little question that this has happened before, and that humans have survived it.  We can't be 100% sure, since we weren't actually there and measuring it, but the evidence is about as strong as it can be.  Changes in earth's magnetic strength and polarity appear to be a historical fact.

My question, again, is: so what?  Does it matter to weather or climate?

What are your thoughts?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/31/2019 at 9:44 AM, RobBucksPA said:

So I ask: in your opinion, does the earth's magnetic field affect climate, weather, both, or neither?

An interesting question.

I am in the group that would say that it affects both, but without an overabundance of empirical evidence some scientists that study such matters would scoff at the idea and say neither. That's what irritates me about scientists, any new theory needs two or more (depending on the exoticness of the theory) proofs before they will accept it as fact, and even then they accept it grudgingly.

The secret for either laypersons like myself or learned scientists is, you have to have faith until all possible avenues are exhausted and that takes time.

As an example:   You can cherry pick from this google search for: Doubts about the Higgs Boson and some of the results go as far back as 2011 but this one last year: Beyond any doubt: Higgs boson couples to the heaviest lepton seems to offer definitive proof of its existence, notice I used 'seems', even I can't avoid the uncertainty, but I do have faith that given enough time and determination the scientist's working on this problem will succeed.

Now, back to your question; I find that if you search for answers to questions you have you will find better results if you stick to institutions of higher learning, Penn State is a good one locally for weather but for most other topics I like to search Cornell University so I searched for Magnetism and Earth's weather site:cornell.edu

The first result [PDF]Space Climate and Space Weather over the past 400 years: 1 ... - arXiv  Notice it is a PDF so depending on how you have your browser set it will open directly in your browser or it will offer a download. I took the D/L and from that found this in Chapter 4:

Spoiler

4) Generation of the magnetic field and its role in atmospheric escape


We have described the interactions between the surface environment (atmosphere
plus ocean) and the mantle in sections
2 & 3. In this section we demonstrate that
additional interactions exists between the mantle and core, and the geomagnetic field
(which is generated by the core dynamo) and atmosphere. The mantle controls the
rate at which the core cools, thereby playing a crucial role in maintaining the energy
flow necessary to drive convection and dynamo action in the core. The geomagnetic
field provides a shield that holds the solar wind far above the surface (presently at
about 9 Earth-radii) so that most high energy particles are diverted and prevented
from disrupting the near surface environment. As a result, magnetic fields may
limit the atmospheric escape rate under certain conditions. The magnetic field’s
influence on escape rate can then have an important control on long-term climate
evolution, opening the possibility for an indirect influence of the core dynamo on
mantle convection, in addition to the direct role mantle convection plays in driving
the dynamo.

So the notion is out there and you are not in all probability to be the first to think about it. The electromagnetic force is the last of the four fundamental interactions or forces: gravitation, electromagnetism, the weak interaction, and the strong interaction to be fully understood.

Something I like to think about and I feel it has a connection to your thread is; We are all made of 'starstuff' as Carl Sagan once said. So how can magnetism not have an affect on planet Earth?

Quote

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.”
Carl Sagan, Cosmos

“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
Carl Sagan, Cosmos

Goodreads

 

It is just a matter of time to find all these 'truths' unfortunately that is the problem with Homo Sapiens, you and I have been placed into a Universe that is, dare I say infinitely more vast than we have time to explore.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This thought occurred to me again, as the "one month slip" that we've been commenting on continues.  We are getting far more April Shower in May than we did in April.  Snow comes later.  Cold comes later.  Everything seems to be later, here in the Western Northern hemisphere.

So I took a look at the magnetic north pole.  We keep hearing that it has moved, but we don't ever ask "could this affect the climate?"  We get all worked up over CO2, but the earth's magnetic field?  That's largely ignored.

Why?  It's clearly a foundational piece of this whole planet... and it has moved a LOT.

If you are 50 years old and live in the USA, then the North Pole has moved about 1,200 MILES away from you in your lifetime.  About 25 miles a year, give or take... and accelerating.  It's now more like 35, so I am being generous.

And the motion is AWAY from us, and towards Russia.  Thus, magnetically the USA is much further south than it used to be.  The magnetic north was much closer, 100 years ago.  Thousands of miles closer.  

A quick Google and, voila... there is, indeed, research happening here.  Early indications are that times like we are in now, with weakening magnetic fields (and the change that accompanies them) are also warmer, but the research is still new.

Perhaps instead of putting up solar panels, we will want to put up giant magnetic arrays...   ;)

 

 

 

 

  • Like 1
  • One on Me 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, RobBucksPA said:

This thought occurred to me again, as the "one month slip" that we've been commenting on continues.  We are getting far more April Shower in May than we did in April.  Snow comes later.  Cold comes later.  Everything seems to be later, here in the Western Northern hemisphere.

So I took a look at the magnetic north pole.  We keep hearing that it has moved, but we don't ever ask "could this affect the climate?"  We get all worked up over CO2, but the earth's magnetic field?  That's largely ignored.

Why?  It's clearly a foundational piece of this whole planet... and it has moved a LOT.

If you are 50 years old and live in the USA, then the North Pole has moved about 1,200 MILES away from you in your lifetime.  About 25 miles a year, give or take... and accelerating.  It's now more like 35, so I am being generous.

And the motion is AWAY from us, and towards Russia.  Thus, magnetically the USA is much further south than it used to be.  The magnetic north was much closer, 100 years ago.  Thousands of miles closer.  

A quick Google and, voila... there is, indeed, research happening here.  Early indications are that times like we are in now, with weakening magnetic fields (and the change that accompanies them) are also warmer, but the research is still new.

Perhaps instead of putting up solar panels, we will want to put up giant magnetic arrays...   ;)

 

 

 

 

Very interesting. Awesome take here, makes a lot of sense. Something this big has to be having an impact.  It didn't shift a couple of miles...

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

re: Higgs Boson...the discovery of the Higgs Boson was quite a stunning success.it confirmed many a theory about an expanding or contracting Universe following the "Big Bang" and it's high 'expansion' rates...as far as the Earth's Magnetic Field there has been instances where violent Solar emissions have caused excess particles to be brought down to Earth via the Val Allen belts causing wide spread power interruptions to the 'grid' in North America...now for the "Earth Shattering" secret...

One of the most remarkable subjects on Earth is Quantum Physics...and one of the most amazing things that this study has shown us is that all things in this Universe are composed of 'electromagnetism'...and even more amazing is that all particles in this Universe have a dual existence as 'particle' and 'wave'...we unknowingly use objects that utilize this property without even being aware of this 'conundrum'...i.e. Lasers, MRI's and hundreds of other applications of the 'splitting' of photons into 'particles' and 'wave functions'....

Two eminently accurate books explain not only the theories of 'cosmology' (as did wonderfully by Carl Sagan), but a book by Physics Professors at UC Santa Cruz brought modern Physics biggest ghost 'out of the closet'...(Einstein and Heisenberg debated the subject for years'

First Book...Decoding the Universe: How the New Science of Information Is Explaining Everything in the Cosmos, from Our Brains to Black Holes by Charles Seife

Quote

The cosmos, as Seife depicts it, is a great big information swap meet. Objects enormous and minuscule are always encountering other objects and being affected by them in such a way that they “gather information” — not consciously, of course, but in the way that the mercury collected information about my boiling syrup. A pool ball that’s hit by another pool ball receives information about the speed and direction of the ball that hit it. Subatomic particles do the same. Of course, subatomic particles do a lot of things that are much more baffling than this, like existing in two different places at the same time until someone or something tries to locate them. But, as Seife argues, information still lies at the root of all this. “Decoding the Universe” offers a history of the development of information theory, too, beginning with the cryptographers of World War II.

 2nd book...         Quantum Enigma: Physics Encounters Consciousness by Bruce Rosenblum  (Author), Fred Kuttner  (Author)   https://quantumenigma.com/

Quote

In trying to understand the atom, physicists built quantum mechanics, the most successful theory in science and the basis of one-third of our economy. They found, to their embarrassment, that with their theory, physics encounters consciousness. Authors Bruce Rosenblum and Fred Kuttner explain all this in non-technical terms with help from some fanciful stories and anecdotes about the theory's developers. They present the quantum mystery honestly, emphasizing what is and what is not speculation. Quantum Enigma's description of the experimental quantum facts, and the quantum theory explaining them, is undisputed. Interpreting what it all means, however, is heatedly controversial. But every interpretation of quantum physics involves consciousness. Rosenblum and Kuttner therefore turn to exploring consciousness itself--and encounter quantum mechanics. Free will and anthropic principles become crucial issues, and the connection of consciousness with the cosmos suggested by some leading quantum cosmologists is mind-blowing. Readers are brought to a boundary where the particular expertise of physicists is no longer the only sure guide. They will find, instead, the facts and hints provided by quantum mechanics and the ability to speculate for themselves.

In the few decades since the Bell's theorem experiments established the existence of entanglement (Einstein's "spooky action"), interest in the foundations, and the mysteries, of quantum mechanics has accelerated. In recent years, physicists, philosophers, computer engineers, and even biologists have expanded our realization of the significance of quantum phenomena. This second edition includes such advances. The authors have also drawn on many responses from readers and instructors to improve the clarity of the book's explanations.

 

...the Nobel Prize was awarded for research into Higgs Boson in 2013...https://home.cern/science/physics/higgs-boson

...Fascinating subjects indeed...of course, as Scientists (and the layman) delve into subjects that are extremely complex(or simple, if you remember that all things are connected), we seem to find that the extremely small world of atomic and sub-atomic particles is infinitely as mis-understood as the world that we only can partially understand due to the 'design flaws' of our own built-in error... due to the limited range of our senses...we cannot 'perceive' what our 'equipment does not respond to...such as X-Rays, cosmic rays,etc...sights, sounds, and human 'experience' that are outside the range of human bodies limited  awareness...science does not always 'find' what we 'think' should "be there"...yet, it all still is part of 'existence'...

...and the biggest 'mind-blower' of all is that 'we as observers "collapse' the world into 'solidity simply because of our being 'consciously aware' of what we think we are 'observing....:hmm:

this was my 'quote' the last few months on a now-abandoned weather forum that idee will not name...

Quote

Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are a part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.   Max Planck

 

Edited by idecline
  • Love it! 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With all this discussion of the magnetic north pole we should include: The South Atlantic Anomaly: The Key for a Possible Geomagnetic Reversal because it is linked to magnetic North. It to is moving, al-bet a bit slower to what Rob has found out. The study has shown that it moves at a 40KM per year average and since 1800 that's 8,760 Kilometers or 5,443.2 miles. If we use Rob's 50 year lifetime that's 1,000KM or 621.4 miles compared to 1,200.

feart-04-00040-g003.jpg.ae7b2d6679402e6ac826b84ed3fae9f2.jpg

Something I found: I present the Lithospheric magnetic field It doesn't show the magnetic North and just a bit of the SAA (South Atlantic Anomaly) This does show show the magnetic North Pole.

 

For idecline:

Quote

The Brain.
It is a 3 pound mass of jelly. It can contemplate the universe, the meaning of infinity, and contemplate itself contemplating the meaning of infinity.

TED Talk: RAMACHANDRAN on your mind

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, I've read about how the poles might be reversing.  There is extremely strong evidence that this has happened rather often in the history of this rock that we live on.  The theory is that the poles not only swap places, but they weaken as part of the process.  The evidence is overwhelming that this has happened often, relative to the many millions of years that this planet has existed.

Not in human experience, however.  Thus, humans have nothing but theories to go on, based on pre-human fossil records and a lot of "thunking..."

What do we know?

Well, we know that our magnetic field is as close to "shields" as we have.  The atmosphere and the various magnetic belts are all that keep space from having its way with us.  Cosmic rays, meteors, regular'ol solar radiation, etc., are all moderated by these two - and only these two - earthly defense systems.  

As to what creates our climate, of this we know less.  The moon and the sun are definites.  The shape of the planet, location of land-masses and water, and its position relative to the sun (and perhaps other heavenly bodies) are also certain contributors.  "It never rains in Southern California" for a reason, and we know what that reason is... mostly.

But what about magnetism?  What about gravity?  What about how they interface with cosmic rays, solar radiation, etc.?  

How could they NOT be contributing factors?

And they change.  Both of them.  Gravity by a little, but it does change.  There is evidence that Europe is starting to move, tectonically, back towards N. America via tectonic subduction off the coast of Portugal.  OTOH, the Mid Atlantic Ridge is expanding, pushing the land masses in the opposite direction.  We know that the land masses move, but only now can we even begin measuring by how much, and what is the net-vector?

Magnetism, as we have said here, is changing FAST.  Articles I read say "about 5% every 10 years," which means that if you are 50 years old, it is a lot weaker (you can't just say 5 X .05, but that's a close approximation) than it was when you were born.  

Unlike CO2, there is no money to be made with this.  There is no power to consolidate via terrifying the masses.  There are no Academy Awards to be won.

There is, obviously, not a THING we can do about it.  We can't cause it, we can't moderate it, and we certainly can't stop it.  

All we can do is what humans do best: survive it.  Apply solutions, if and when problems arise, that allow the species to flourish - assuming the planet doesn't just fall apart.

Interesting times.  Maybe we should ask our climatologists to pay a bit more attention to this?  Some warnings, if warranted, would be nice.

  • Love it! 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Don't some of the thunkers think these kind of shifts are accompanied by all kinds of cataclysmic mayhem? Like the worst parts of the bible...   yeah,  this seems like something that needs looking into :classic_dry:

Edited by 1816

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/8/2019 at 5:12 PM, 1816 said:

Don't some of the thunkers think these kind of shifts are accompanied by all kinds of cataclysmic mayhem? Like the worst parts of the bible...   yeah,  this seems like something that needs looking into :classic_dry:

The stuff I've been reading is strictly climatological.  Less magnetism means less shielding means more cosmic rays and other such things getting through to the atmosphere.

As for the earth's core, and how it is related to magnetism... well, that's presumed to be 100% true.  Iron core, molten, spinning and moving = magnetism.  The fields are real, that's for sure.  It's just that they're weakening...

Does it also translate to a lot more seismic activity?  it could.  Doomsday?  

We'll find out, one way or the other ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...